-

Hon. Mr. HOPE

gentlemen cannot make their debentures they can procure. They are quite able payable in franes. We constantly to look after themselves. But we have authorize companies to issue their securi- to look after the interests of those who are ties in sterling. It is quite true that to borrow. I think there is a good deal England is the Mother Country, and to recommend this Bill to the House. quite proper that we should pay her that Of course the mortgages that this Comrespect, but it is a sentiment which com- pany will take will be payable in the mercial men do not recognize. If we coin of this realm. They will take the have to make use of debentures payable mortgages from the several borrowers in in another country, we should accommo- the currency of Canada and that is all date the people who are to buy them. we have to deal with. The people who are to borrow from this Company are those whose interests we must look after; we must see that we are not exposing them to be imposed upon or unduly entrapped by this Company. In looking over the Bill, I find they have guarded themselves very much more than most of our loan societies have done. I notice in the first place there is a restriction that they shall not advance more that one-half the value of the property; and there is another restriction which is new to my mind and I think a very good one that the value of the property shall be estimated by the net revenue which it is capable of yielding. Now, those are safeguards that I have never seen introduced in any of these loan companies bills before. I think they would prevent a man from borrowing more than he ought to do, and more than the property should fairly be charged with. Then there is another important provision which enables a debtor to pay off his debt at any time. Now, what is the fact to day in this country? We know 7ery well that if a debtor proposes to pay off his debt to a loan company, they decline to accept the money; except at such figures as they choose to fix themselves. There is no loan company doing business in this country to-day that is prepared to offer such a resonable basis to parties desiring to pay up. They are governed by the position of the debtor, and I have never known a loan company in Canada to make a settlement with a debtor on any such reasonable basis as this. I do not see any other clause in the Bill which requires comment; so far as the interest of the people who buy debentures is concerned I do not think that we need trouble ourselves about that. We know that people do not put their money into ventures of that kind unless they have good security; and they are advised by the best counsel

- I have been informed that the Act incorporating this Company in the Province of Quebec is ultra vires, and I looked at the Act to satisfy myself on this subject. It certainly is રી very lengthy and complicated document, and it would take a longer time than I can give to it at present before I could find out what it all amounts to. think that the hon. gentleman who moved the amendment is fully justified in desiring to have the opinion of the Supreme Court judges upon the measure. It is rather unusual legislation for us here, and a good many of the provisions are such as I think are not exactly in accordance with the legislation which we have hitherto had on such subjects. The hon. gentleman who last spoke referred to section 2 as being very worthy of insertion in any act of this kind. I think the three clauses of section 2 are just about as childish provisions as I ever saw on the statute book. The Company can get valuations to order all over the country, and to say that they are not to loan over more than half the values is useless. They will soon get valuations to suit them. These provisions of the Bill may do well to inculcate upon the directors in a general way, but to bind them down in any way is ill advised, and in an Act of Parliament, I think it is childish in the last degree. With regard to the rate of interest, some hon. gentlemen have remarked that this Company is about to effect a great reduction in the rate, which will be a great advantage to the people generally. I admit that I think it is of very great importance to encourage the introduction of private capital, so as to aid in the developmen. of the resources of the country. Some twenty years ago when loan societies be

6

gan to come into operation in Ontario, | ceded him can very well be considered in 12 per cent. was the usual rate that was committee. My chief difficulty lies at charged for money, and often higher than the very threshold of the Bill. It purthat was paid. There was really noth- ports to be a Bill giving certain powers to ing to prevent them charging anything a Company incorporated by an Act of the they could get, but the accumulation of Legislature of Quebec; and it sets forth capital in the country, and the compe- that it shall be lawful for the Company tition of these loan societies reduced the so incorporated by that Act, to do certain rate to 8 and to 7 and even to 6 per things, borrow and loan money throughcent. Some of the leading loan societies out the Dominion of Canada. I have of Ontario are furnishing money at 6 been trying to see whether there was any per cent. to, I might say, almost any precedent for similar legislation on the amount; so I do not think this Company statute book. I remember several years can take credit to itself for reducing the ago a number of Ontario loan companies rate of interest. Companies in this applied for Acts to this Legislature; the country had been loaning money at Canada Permanent, the Western Canada, per cent. before we ever heard of this the Imperial, and several others had Acts Bill. With regard to section 13, if passed at various times, some in 1871, these gentlemen who are promoting this and others again in 1875 and 1876. Bill wish to secure Dominion powers, I These Acts were for the purpose of think they ought to go to the Act that merely changing the names of the realready exists on the statute books which spective companies, but they did nothwas passed in the year 1877; and if they ing more than simply state that certain had asked for these powers I would companies incorporated under certain have been very glad to support the Bill; Acts from the old Province of Canada, but when they come and ask for powers or from the Dominion, should be allowed to such as were never granted before, they change their names, and that that change must excuse us if we pause before com- of name should make no difference as to plying with their request. They ask the rights or franchises of the respective power to borrow money to the extent of companies in the conduct of their busifive times their paid up capital. The ness. But all these rights and privileges Dominion statute regulating joint stock were to remain precisely the same companies, limits it to four times. no change of name had occurred, and in most of these cases there were similar

as if

Hon. Mr. SCOTT — Well, make it Acts passed in the Legislature of On

four.

tario. I have here before me the Acts relating to the Imperial Loan Company, the Canada Permanent, the Western Canada and some two or three others. In the Western Canada and Canada PerOntario statutes, but I cannot find any manent, I find corresponding Acts in the in the case of the Imperial. In all these said. for a change of name; they did not cases they simply asked, as I have already ask for any new powers, or to do business on any other conditions, or in any other way than already presented by the statutes incorporating those then in existence.

that this Act, if passed in its present The difficulty in this case is state will be altogether incomplete; it will not set forth the capital of the Company and other particulars, which both these from whom they borrow money, and those to whom they propose to loan money, outside of the Province of Quebec, ought to have before them.

-

Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL — If my hon. friend will look at the second clause of the Act of 1875, of the Imperial Company, he will see that a new corporation is created; it incorporates them under the Dominion law, whereas, previously, they were incorporated only under the local law.

Hon. Mr. ALLAN Admitting all that, there is still a wide difference between the cases of those companies and that of the Company which asks to have its powers extended by this Act. In this Act a company incorporated in one Province by an Act of the Local Legislature, is asking for

system extended to New Brunswick, and
my hon. friend from Amherst does not
wish to see it, introduced into Nova
Scotia. We have different classes of
farmers in New Brunswick. We have
farmers on dyke marshes who are
wealthy men; we have farmers on the
intervales who are also men of means,
and have money to lend instead of bor-
row; we have the upland farmers,
and I believe it would be unfortunate
for them to have inducements held out
I can tell the hon.
to them to borrow.
gentleman that from my experience,
when a farm becomes mortgaged for half
its value it soon becomes its whole value.
The mortgager gets discouraged and lets
the farm run down, and it decreases in
value, until by the time the mortgage
expires, the man is turned out of doors.
It is for this reason that I shall support
the amendment. The Bill may be re-
quired for the Province of Quebec, but I
hope it will be confined to that Prov-
ince.

Hon. Mr. DEVER-I am opposed to extending this Bill to the Province of New Brunswick. A few years ago, I and others had a great deal of trouble in this Parliament to get for New Bruns wick a Bill permitting free commerce in pow-money as a commodity in the market. Before that period there was a great deal of dissatisfaction with regard to the handling of money. The legal rate of interest was six per cent, but since that Bill was passed any rate of interest is obtainable after contracts are made. That has given satisfaction to the people of New Brunswick, and I am opposed to this Bill as far as New Brunswick is concerned, because we are satisfied with existing arrangements. It is not binding on us in New Brunswick to Hon. Mr. WARK So far as this pay more than six per cent, provided we Bill is concerned, I have no objection in are not disposed to make arrangements confirming the legislation of the Prov-to pay more. On that ground I shall ince of Quebec, if it is required; but I oppose this Bill so far as New Brunsdo not feel disposed to accept it for New wick is concerned.

ers to do business all over the Dominion. That original Act of incorporation should certainly have been so far set forth or incorporated with this Act, as to give to all who may do business with it without the Province of Quebec, full information in regard to its capital, and all the rights and privileges which it possesses under its original charter. The Act in its present shape will, in my humble judgment, certainly be very incomplete and bad legislation.

Brunswick "Credit Foncier" is not Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLEwanted there. We have, of course, farmers in New Brunswick who get into debt, but I do not think it is well to hold out inducements for them to do

I have listened with the greatest attention to all the members who have spoken on this question. I do not think they have answered the doubts which I have expressed as to the right of the Legislature of the Province of Quebec to incorporate this Company. I spoke

Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE

Hon. Mr. TRUDEL That amounts to nothing.

of its having established a French cur-
rency in the Province, and although I Yes.
admit that this House has the right to
change the currency of the country, I
think there is no doubt that the local
legislature has no power to do so.
Every one knows that in the British
North America Act that is reserved to

the Parliament of Canada. More than

Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE

The hon. Postmaster General in his remarks did not express an opinion of He merely alluded to the various proto the constitutionality of this charter. visions of the Bill before us; but hon. gentlemen must not forget that this Bill is merely an extension of the Act of the Local Legisiature. The hon. Senator from lation, but he forgot to read the whole of Oshawa cited precedents for this legis. the preamble of the Ontario Express and Transportation Company's Act, to which

he referred. While their business was

that, in the instructions to Lord Dufferin (I have not the instructions to the present Governor General) the Queen says:-" You are not to assent in our name to any Bill of any of the classes hereinafter specified," and amongst others is included, “Any Bill whereby any paper or other currency may be made a legal tender, except the coin of the realm, or other gold or silver coin." Therefore, not only is it not an Act of confined to Ontario they were satisfied this Parliament, but our sovereign insists that such Bills shall not become from the Legislature of that Province, with the Act which they had obtained law without being referred to her. The but when they thought of extending hon. Senator from Ottawa think that their business they came here. we ought to be glad to get money from did they ask to have their charter conany source. I agree with him, and I firmed? No, it was a new corporation said yesterday that I should be glad if with a new capital stock. I accept that ten such companies as this would come here to lend money at low rates of in- Foncier Company ought to have made a precedent, and I say that as this Credit terest, but it does not follow that the similar application. We have a right local legislatures have the right to estab-to seek for the opinion of the judges of lish a new legal tender as is done by the Act passed by the Quebec Legislature.

The hon. Senator from Ottawa also alluded to the fact that the money is to be paid in France. That is not the only place. By the Act of the Quebec Legislature it is provided

Hon. Mr. SCOTT — That Act is not before us.

Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE It is on that Act that this Bill is founded, and we must examine the Act to understand the Bill.

But

the charter of the Company. The hon. the Supreme Court on this Bill, and

Senator from

DeSalaberry, in his redoubts as to the constitutionality of this marks yesterday, said he had grave

Bill.

Hon. Mr. TRUDEL I said I knew that doubts had been expressed as to its constitutionality.

Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE — I understood the hon. gentleman to say that he had himself grave doubts, and I will refresh his memory by reminding him that he added if we should send the two Credit Foncier Bills to the Supreme Court, he would be in favor of the amendment. Did I understand the hon. gentleman correctly?

Hon. Mr. TRUDEL I said there

were two Bills in competition, and that there would be a serious injustice in giving a preference to one of them that unless the two Bills were put on the same footing there would be injustice.

Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE

It seems to me we should consider every Bill on its own merits, and not wait until some other Bill comes up to see if we are right or wrong in voting on a

The Senate divided on the amendment, which was rejected by the following

Simpson,
Stevens.-16.

NON-CONTENTS:

Hon. Messrs.

Gibbs,
Girard,
Guevrement,

Hamilton (Inkerman)
Hamilton (Kingston),
Howlan,
McLelan (Londonderry)
Macfarlane,
Miller,
Montgomery,
Northwood,

CREDIT FONCIER OF THE DOMINION twenty-four hours, will enable them to