extent of this, if I had not witnessed it in these remarkable instances. They seemed to regard the canons of the church precisely as we regard the decisions of Scripture; and just as we regard any unbelief of the statements of Holy Scripture as infidelity, so they regard every doubt as to the judgment of the church as the worst infidelity. It seemed as if a doubt of it never cast its shadow across their minds. (pp. 5, 6.)

One of the first subjects of conversation naturally was the Tractarian movement in the English

Church.

He then begged of me to explain my idea of the manner in which the movement was likely to op

erate.

tance than those which related to its Mariolatry and saint and image worship, and we quite agree with Mr. Seymour in thinking that the position taken by his Jesuit collocutors on this point, is worth especial notice, as showing the present state of feeling in the Church of Rome respecting it, and demonstrating that the tendency is towards the growth and increase of this superstition. There are bold declarations of doctrine and expressions of feeling in the conversations on this point, for which we should have been equally unprepared with Mr. Seymour, and which (combined with the recent Letter of the Pope on the subject of the Immaculate Conception) seem to show that that church is sinking even into more degrading depths of superstition and false doctrine.

give her more and more a similarity to the Church of Rome; and by that very course had led their opponents to run into the opposite extreme. It had evoked an antagonistic spirit, that was sure to lead nearer and nearer to dissent; and I added that my own conviction was, that the real evil, the impending danger, was, the people forsaking the Church of England, as a church declining towards Rome; and then utterly overthrowing and destroying her -a danger like that which arose out of the proceedings of Archbishop Laud, in the time of Charles I., namely, the utter subversion of the Church of England.

He intimated that he had not seen the movement

in that light, but rather regarded it as one likely to lead the Church of England towards the Church of Rome-that all parties of all churches seemed agreed that the movement could not stop where it was-that the active movers would come over, and if honest in their statements, and sincere in their

opinions, must come over, to the Church of Rome; be a gainer;-that, however it might end for the Church of England, it must prove a gain to the Church of Rome-that they could not remain as they were, but must go further; and he felt that the course taken by such good men was certain to exert a great weight and influence upon others.

and so far at least the Church of Rome must

I was silent, except so far as assenting to his opinion respecting the parties engaged in the movement. He observed this, and continued to say, that there was a large section of the Church of England -and that too an increasing section-steadily and surely inclining to the Church of Rome; and thus a great division existed in the very heart of the Church of England, and that thus there were many who would embrace, and were embracing, the very system against which I objected; and he added, that although I might not be aware of the fact, yet

he knew it from sources of information that were

not accessible to all, that multitudes in England were privately coming over to the Church of Rome. (pp. 18, 19.)

We quote this principally for the testimony contained at the close of it, and wish it may tend to open the eyes of some who would fain keep them closed to everything but what appears on the surface.

Among the conversations on the doctrine of the Church of Rome, none seem to us of more impor

I stated, says Mr. Seymour, that there appeared to be many things that seemed not only extravagant, things that at times seemed so gross that no reasonable credulity could stand them; and had the effect of raising an insurmountable objection against any communion with the Church of Rome, if, indeed, these things were part and parcel of her system, or in any way essential to her completeness; and I added, that if they were not essential they ought to have been got rid of as offensive to so many persons.

He replied, that he quite felt that there were many things to which my remarks would very justly apply, but that there were many others that were extravagant or absurd only in appearance; and that it not unfrequently occurred that those things that at one time seemed liable to insurmountable objections, were afterwards adopted by converts without the least scruple or difficulty. He therefore wished me to specify some illustration.

I referred in return to the miraculous picture of the Virgin Mary in the church of S. Maria Mag

giore to the miraculous image of our Lord as a child in the church at Araceli-to the miraculous image of the Virgin Mary in the church of the Augustines; and to several other pictures and images, which were said to be miraculous, and which were worshipped with a special and peculiar devotion-were crowned and carried in procession precisely as the ancient heathens of Rome used to carry the images of their gods. I stated that these things seemed very gross, and that usually in England the advocates of the Church of Rome got rid of all objections derived from them by dis avowing all these things as abuses, as exaggerations, as bad or superstitious practices, which were not acknowledged or practised by the wellinformed, and were not approved by the church. I therefore would take the opportunity of asking him, living as he did at the fountain head, and capable of informing me with some authority, whether others or myself could be justified in setting the objection aside in that way-namely, by attributing these things to the ignorance of the foolish and superstitious.

He answered without the least hesitation, and in a manner that took me by surprise. He answered that I had taken a very wrong view of these particulars, in regarding them as extravagant or absurd; for, although they might appear strange to me, as at one time they had appeared to himself, so strange indeed as sometimes to be absolutely loathsome to his feelings, and although he felt him self unable to justify them in themselves, yet there was no doubt of their being approved in practice by the church; that they were no exaggeration or caricature, but real verities, which at one time were a stumbling-block and offence to his own mind. He added that there was much that might be said in their favor, for that the Italians were a people very different from the English; that the English loved a religion of the heart, and the Italians a religion of the senses; the English a religion of the feelings, and the Italians a religion for the taste; the English an inward and spiritual religion, and the Italians an outward and visible religion; and that it was the intention of the church, as well as her duty, to arrange all the rites, ceremonies, acts, services of religion, so as to be suitable to an outward and visible religion, and calculated for the mind of Italy; and thus those particulars concerning the crowning and processions of miraculous pictures and miraculous images, however strange and absurd to the English, have been sanctioned by the church as both natural and wise to the Italians.

I expressed in strong terms my surprise at the position he had taken, expecting that he would have denied or softened these things, instead of asserting and defending them. And I took the opportunity of alluding to the coronation of the picture of Mary, in S. Maria Maggiore-a coronation by the present Pope, (Gregory XII.,) who crowned it amidst religious services with his own hands; I also alluded to the procession which conducted the same picture through the streets, in order to suppress the cholera-a procession in which the present Pope joined bare-footed-and I asked whether we were to regard these acts, in which all the chiefs of the church, as the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, &c., took an active part, as the acts of the church, sanctioning the opinions that pictures could work miracles, and that the procession of a picture of the Virgin Mary could possibly stay the virulence of the cholera, and that any particular picture was entitled to any special or peculiar devotion, as as a coronation-in short, entitled to more veneration than other pictures.

To this he replied with frankness and decision, saying that he had no doubt, and that there could be no doubt whatever, as to the miraculous powers of some images and pictures; and he explained the matter thus. It sometimes occurred, he said, that some persons were affected, specially affected or moved, by some pictures or images more than by others; that in praying before these, their feelings were more touched, their sensibilities more excited, and their devotional affections more drawn out in prayer; that, in answer to such prayer, God not unfrequently gave responses which were more marked than ordinary, and were to be regarded as miraculous answers to prayers made before miraculous pictures or images.

I could not avoid showing my incredulity as to all this, and I certainly was as surprised as I was incredulous.

He observed this, but only continued to express himself more strongly, stating that there was no doubt whatever as to the reality of many miracles of this nature in answer to such prayers; and that when the report of these miracles spread abroad, when the public heard of them, when the minds of the devout were excited by the fame of them, then multitudes of persons naturally flocked to such pictures and images to pray before them; and their feelings being excited, and their affections being the more drawn out by the circumstance, there were

yet again other miracles wrought by God, and so these images and pictures became miraculous. He added, that the picture of the Virgin at S. Maria Maggiore was such that the image of Mary at the church of the Augustinians was such-and that the picture of St. Ignatius praying to the Virgin in the church of Gesu was, with many others, also miraculous.

I must frankly confess that I was wholly unprepared for this. In all my former experience of controversy in Ireland and England, I had been told that all those were the mere abuses of the superstitious, and not sanctioned by the learned; if, indeed, such things were believed or practised anywhere. I had often heard them denounced as mere fabricationspure inventions to injure the character of the Church of Rome, and I felt much surprise to find them not only believed and practised, but defended. I felt that it was opening out to me a new state of things, a new phase of mind, and a totally new system of faith or credulity, which I had never anticipated. A mind must be in a peculiar state to believe in the miraculous powers of a picture or image.

His explanation led me to advance a step in our argument, and to say that his statements seemed to imply that there was something peculiar to those images and pictures, something inherent in them as compared with others, something not in the saint or angel represented, but in these very pictures and images themselves. I endeavored to illustrate my meaning by suggesting two pictures of the Virgin Mary placed side by side, and asking whether one being supposed to be miraculous, the people would pray before that one rather than the other; and whether he believed the Virgin Mary would interfere with a miraculous answer for those who prayed to her before that one rather than the other. I added, that, if such was the case, it went to prove a belief that there was something peculiar, some virtue or power, something miraculous in such a picture, in one rather than the other; and that the distinction proved that the people did look for something, in pictures and images, more than the persons whom they were designed to represent.

He gave the fullest assent to this, saying, that they looked first of all to the saint represented in the picture or image, and that then, in case there was a miraculous character, they looked also to that power or virtue. He added, that his full belief was, that the Virgin Mary was more partial to some representations of herself than to others; and that, in order to induce the devout to pray before these her favorite ones, she heard and answered the prayers so offered, while she neglected those that were offered elsewhere--answering the prayers offered before one picture which she liked, and refusing those offered before a picture which she did not like.

This was a degree of credulity, not to say superstition, for which I was wholly unprepared; and I felt that there must be something in the atmosphere of Italy, or something in the training of the mind of Italy, that could lead an intelligent, a travelled, and educated man to such a state of credulity. (pp. 35-41.

My clerical friend, after a pause which I was unwilling to break, lest I should express myself as strongly as I felt, resumed the conversation, and said, that the worship of the Virgin Mary was a growing worship in Rome-that it was increasing in depth and intenseness of devotion; and that there were now many of their divines, and he spoke of himself as agreeing with them in sentiin holiness;-that as Eve brought in damnation, so Mary was to bring in salvation; and that the effect of this opinion was largely to increase the reverence and worship given to the Virgin Mary.

I said that I had read something of the kind, and also that I had seen a sort of parallel in some of the fathers on the subject, but that it did not go so far as the modern opinion. But in order not to misunderstand him, and to prevent any mistake as to his views, I asked whether I was to understand him as implying, that as we regard Eve as the first sinner, so we are to regard Mary as the first Saviour; one as the author of sin, and the other as the author of the remedy.

He replied that such was precisely the view he wished to express, and he added, that it was taught by St. Alphonso de Liguori, and was a growing opinion. (pp. 43, 44.)

And when Mr. Seymour remarked, that, from his observations on the devotions of the Italians, he felt that "the religion of Italy ought to be called the religion of Mary rather than the religion of Christ," the answer, " made with perfect ease and entire frankness," was

That my impression was very natural; that such was really the appearance of things; that coming from Germany, where Christ on the cross was the ordinary object of veneration, into Italy, where the Virgin Mary was the universal object of reverence, it was no more than natural such an impression should have been created; that such an impression was very much the reality of the case; and that, to his own knowledge, the religion of Italy was latterly becoming less and less the religion of Christ; and that "the devotion to the most Holy Virgin," as he called it, was certainly on the increase.

I was perfectly startled, not indeed at the statement itself, for it was too palpably true to escape the observation of any one; but that a man, a minister of Christianity, should describe such a state of things with the manifest approval he exhibited. We were shocked.

He perceived this, and then proceeded to justify himself with an ingenuity and address that laid open the system, and exhibited the worship of Mary in a new light, at least in a light in which I had never seen it before. He stated, that there was a great difference in the bent or habit of mind, between English Protestants on one hand, and Italian Romanists on the other; that Protestants habitually let their minds dwell on Christ's teaching, on Christ working miracles, and especially on Christ's suffering, bleeding, dying on the cross; so that, in a Protestant mind, the great object was Christ in the maturity of his manhood; but that Romanists habitually dwelt on the childhood of Christ; not on the great events that were wrought in maturity and manhood, but on those interesting scenes which were connected with his childhood. He then went on to say, that this habit of mind led to the great difference; that as Protestants always dwelt on the suffering and dying Christ, so Christ in a Protestant mind was always connected with the cross; and that as Romanists constantly meditated rather on the childhood of Christ, so Christ in a Romanist's mind was usually associated with his mother, the Virgin Mary. He then continued to say that the constant dwelling of the mind in contemplation on

the little scenes of His childhood, dwells on the little incidents of interest between the child Jesus and the mother Mary, recollects that she had him enshrined in her womb, that she used to lead him by the hand, that she had listened to all his innocent prattle, that she had observed the opening of his mind; and that during all those days of his happy childhood she, and she alone of all the world, knew that little child whom she bore in her womb, and nursed at her breasts, and fondled in her arms, was her God-that when a man thinks, and habitually thinks, of all this, the natural result is that his affections will be more drawn out, and his feelings of devotion more elevated, towards Mary. And he concluded by stating that this habit of mind was becoming more general, and that it was to it that he would attribute the great increase that late years had witnessed in the devotion to the Virgin Mary. (pp. 45-47.)

A practical illustration of this devotion was voluntarily given by one of Mr. Seymour's Jesuit visitors, in an account of his own conduct towards a poor Protestant, to whom he was called in when almost in the agonies of death. Mr. Seymour thus reports his statement :

He then told the circumstances with much simplicity; that the man was dying that he had no relatives near him-that one of his companions had talked much to him about sending for a priestthat he had never avowed anything on the subject of religion or of a priest-that as he was nearer death, my friend as a priest was at the bedside of the man-that he found him so far gone as to be speechless that he therefore stated to him that he would kneel down and offer a prayer for him. His words were, "He was speechless; so I said I would kneel down and say one of my prayers for him. I then immediately knelt down and said the 'Hail Mary,' the 'Ave Maria."

I was perfectly astonished, and could not repress the expression of my intense astonishment that at such a moment, when an immortal soul was passing into eternity-when all the awful accompaniments of death were around him, he could think of offering such a sentence, for prayer it was not, as the "Hail Mary!" I repeated the words of the "Ave Maria," and asked how it was possible that he had no word to offer-no counsel to give-no message of forgiveness to announce-no gospel of salvation to preach? how it was possible that, instead of praying to Christ for forgiveness, praying to the Spirit for grace, praying to God for salvation, he could only have offered these words of worship to the Virgin Mary? I was deeply moved at what appeared to me a frightful neglect of the eternal interests of the dying man; and did not hesitate to express myself strongly, as to the fearful responsibility he had incurred.

He seemed not to have heard me, as if he was absorbed in his own thoughts, so that my words were lost on him; and he said with eagerness that he had observed, as he knelt and said the "Hail Mary!" that the dying man moved his lips as if secretly repeating the words after him, for being speechless he could not repeat the words openly; and that he said to the dying man, "And can you repeat that prayer after me?" For he said, addressing himself to me, "There is nothing against which

"Very far gone, indeed," I replied. "Yes," he continued, " he seemed to repeat the prayer after me, and feeling he must have gone very far towards us, I asked him further whether he could not join our church in all the rest. He showed by his manner that he could, and that he wished to be received into our church; ; so I heard his confession and gave him absolution."

At this I was on the point of asking my priestly friend, whose tone and manner was exultation in its highest degree, how he could hear the confession of a man who was speechless? and how a speechless man could utter his confession? but I checked myself on recollecting that, according to their canons, he was justified in exhorting the man to make confession, and then in assuming a confession to have been made in such cases, where the person is too far gone to be able to speak: so I was silent.

He proceeded to say, that, after having thus confessed and absolved the dying inan, there arose a doubt as to whether the man had ever been baptized; and though baptism must never be repeated, yet, as Protestants were very careless in administering baptism, it was felt safe to give conditional baptism to such converts. It was so customary, he said, among the Protestant churches, to baptize without properly pouring the water on the child, that there was no certainty that there was a real baptism; and though they could not think of repeating baptism, yet they always gave conditional baptism, in such cases, to converts. "And in this way," he added, "I baptized the man conditionally, and then I had him immediately confirmed, and he received the communion, and then the extreme unction, and thus he received almost at once no less than five sacraments!" (pp. 102-104.)

This account led to some further conversation on the subject of prayers to the Virgin Mary and the saints. The following extracts will show its

character:

and shame-praying that he might be brought back to repentance and holiness-when a mother thus prayed to the blessed Virgin for her son, she finds that sooner or later her prayer is answered-that her son is brought back repentant and holy; and, connecting this with the blessed Virgin, who was herself a mother and able to sympathize with a mother, she recognizes it as the answer of the Virgin to her prayers, and is therefore encouraged to pray to her again. He continued to say, it was the same way in praying to other saints. When praying to them for any particular object, for recovery from sickness for deliverance from any trouble for the conversion of a beloved child-or, indeed, for any object of prayer generally; when praying thus to a saint for these, it is often found, by experience, that the prayer is fulfilled and the object granted, and this experience induces them to pray again and again to the saints. (pp. 107, 108.)

He repeated what he had said before on this oint expressive ive of the greater leniency, the gentler compassion, and the closer sympathies of Mary; adding that he was borne out in such an opinion by that of the fathers, of whom many were of opinion that even Christ himself was not so willing to hear our prayers, and did not hear them so quickly when offered simply to himself, as when they were offered through the blessed Virgin.

I felt this was a hideous sentiment, and could not forbear to say so, adding that when such opinions were circulated by the priesthood, I could no longer feel surprised at the extent, the extravagance, to which the devotion to Mary had gone in Rome-that I felt the whole devotional system of the Church of Rome, the prayers unceasingly unceasing offered to the Virgin, the innumerable pictures of the Virgin, the countless images of the Virgin, the many churches dedicated to the Virgin, the universal devotion rendered to the Virgin, the manner in which all the services and prayers of the church and people are impregnated with thoughts of the Virgin-the extent to which in conversation all classes went in speaking of the Virgin, all had impressed me with the feeling that the religion of Italy ought to be called the religion of the Virgin Mary, and not the religion of Jesus Christ. I added that it was impossible to justify such a state of things. "If," said I, " I enter the church of the Augustines, I see there an image of the Virgin Mary as large as life. Some are decorating her with jewels as votive offerings-some are suspending pictures around her as memorials of thankfulness-some are placing money in a box at her feet -some are prostrate in profound devotion before her-some are devoutly kissing her feet and touching them with their foreheads-some are repeating the rosary before her, as if acceptable to her-all turning their backs upon the consecrated Host, turning their backs upon that which the priest is elevating at the high altar, and which he and they believe to be Jesus Christ himself bodily and visibly among them-turning their backs upon Christ, and turning their faces to Mary, practically forsaking Christ for Mary, with a prostration the most profound before her image-a prostration that was never surpassed in the days of heathen Rome, and can never be justified in Christian Rome."

He said, in answer to all this, that for his own part he would not act thus, and that it was not right to judge of the church by the devotion of the ignorant.

My wife then interposed, and said she had witnessed all this, and was shocked at what seemed to