MR. T. M. HEALY said that the right doctrine as Mr. Cleveland. He expressed hon. Gentleman the member for South no opinion on the merits of the quarrel ; Aberdeen, who was so well acquainted but he warned the Government that they with United States politics, had told the were in a risky and perilous position, House that it was because of the exist- having regard to politics in the United ence of the Irish vote in America that States, and the enmity of a large body of we had been driven into this curious men of Irish blood, driven from their arrangement with Germany. German country by British laws. emigrants in America were always in favour of their own people in cases of SIR JAMES FERGUSSON said dispute with the United States, and the that an hon. Member had stated that German Government could rely on the Lord Salisbury had persistently resupport of that sentiment. But, when fused arbitration in regard to certain ever the American Government was former claims against Venezuela. That dealing with England, it knew that the was not the case. The difficulty of whole weight of Irish sentiment would be submitting these claims to arbitration thrown against England. Accordingly, was that there was no basis of reference in this matter, England had to go hat in which we could accept consistently with hand to Germany, who had no grievances the undoubted rights of this country. of prestige to redress as England had, When a basis of arbitration was proposed to get the United States to allow this by the United States Government which inroad to be made on the Monroe was consistent with our national position, doctrine in Venezuela. The right hon. arbitration was resorted to, and resulted Gentleman said that Venezuela had in the concession of nearly all the claims rejected arbitration; but who gave that for which Great Britain contended. He country that bad precedent? It was thought it would be most unfortunate Lord Salisbury; but before long America and inconsistent with the practice of this was irritated by that high-handed action, House if an impression were made to and then followed the Cleveland incident, prevail that the action of His Majesty's In the same way the high-handed manner Government was not being supported by in which Germany had seized two Vene- the House and the country, when the zuelan vessels--which were worth probably Government were making claims in satisten times the amount of their monetary faction of the just rights of British claims and sent them to the bottom of Majesty's Government was compelled to resort to a naval demonstration in Venezuelan waters for outrages committed on British subjects, and that, following that demonstration, the Venezuelan Government made the necessary concessions. the sea, had roused irritation in America subjects. He would remind the House Was it to be imagined that the American that, not many years since, Her late people would go on tolerating that conduct indefinitely? The President of the United States would be looking out for a second term of office. Everything in America was decided on by political issues; and soon the Democrats would be beating the Democratic gong, and President Roosevelt would be asked if he were not as good a man for the Monroe (11.25.) MR. STEVENSON (Suffolk, Eye) said England and Germany were not the only two Powers which had claims co-operate with Germany. He did not against Venezuela. Within the last few deny the general proposition, though it hours Italy had entered into the field on was a good thing to work with other account of a debt of £12,000. Could Powers in as friendly a way as possible; the Prime Minister inform the House but from a long experience in the United whether any arrangement in regard to States he was constrained to express the common, or concerted action had been belief that it was a serious mistake on made between this country and any our part to co-operate with Germany other country besides Germany? If so, in bringing pressure to bear on Venethe arrangement would become very zuela. If we had claims against complicated, for it was obvious that the the Venezulean Government, surely this claims might be of a very different country was big enough and strong character. The British claims were enough to enforce them without the for aggression against British persons assistance of Germany or any other and property. The main claim of Power. We ought to have more fully conGermany was financial, and the claim of sidered the great jealousy there was in Italy was of a purely financial character. the United States with regard to Germany If we were to bind ourselves to other and German aspirations, or supposed countries in the same way as we had aspirations, in South America, before we bound ourselves to Germany, it would entered into this joint action and appeared be absolutely impossible for us to obtain before the people of the United States as satisfaction for our claims unless at the an ally of Germany in enforcing these same time claims of a very different claims. It had created a very bad imcharacter by Germany, Italy, and possibly other powers were settled; and in that way the settlement of our claims might be postponed indefinitely. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I understand that the Italians are sending a ship, but there is no agreement like that which exists between us and Germany. *MR. ARTHUR LEE (Hampshire, Fareham) said he most heartily supported the action of the Government in bringing whatever pressure was necessary to bear on the Venezuelan Government tosettle these claims; but he ventured to express disagreement both with the Leader of the Opposition, and the Leader of the House in their view that it was desirable in this particular instance that we should United pression in the United States that we to the whole of the debate, and felt | EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES' pleased that so many of the speakers had recommended arbitration. He hoped that BILL. Lords Amendments to be considered this country would even go so far as to tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 309.] propose arbitration, and not be deterred from doing so by fear of being charged with climbing down. We were a great Power and could afford to be magnanimous to a little one. It was not long since France had similar claims against Venezuela for damages. The disputed claims were submitted to arbitration, and the points at issue were amicably settled. Surely we might follow the example which had been set us by such a highspirited nation as France and settle all matters in dispute between the British. Government and the Government of Venezuela by arbitration. He did not care whether the amount of the claims was large or small; or whether the vessels sunk by the Germans were good, bad, or indifferent; it was clear that the matters in dispute might assume such an aggravated form as would lead this country into conflict not only with Venezuela but with the United States. Now was the time to stop the growth of the unfortunate ill-feeling which existed; and he would urge most strenuously on the Government to refer the matter to arbitration as speedily as possible. MR. SCHWANN said, having received the information he required, he asked leave to withdraw the Motion. [Several HON. MEMBERS: No, no.] Question put, and negatived. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. That they have agreed to-Education (England and Wales) Bill, with Amend ments. Mr. Cremer. EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS. Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [10th November], "That Mr. SPEAKER do now leave the Chair for Committee on East India Revenue Accounts." (Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) Question again proposed. Question put, and agreed to. EAST INDIA REVENUE ACCOUNTS. Considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) Resolved, That it appears by the Accounts laid before this House, that the total revenue of India for the year ending on the 31st March, 1901, was £75,272,291, and that the total expenditure in India and in England charged against revenue was £73,602,087; that there was a sur plus of revenue over expenditure of £1,670,204; and that the capital outlay on Railways and Irrigation Works not charged against revenue was £4,040,9581 (Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) Resolution to be reported. Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October last, adjourned the House without Question put. Adjourned at twenty minutes before Twelve o'clock. An Asterisk (*) at the commencement of a Speech indicates revision by the Member. HOUSE OF LORDS. Tuesday, 16th December, 1902. RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC. TRADE REPORTS-ANNUAL SERIES. No. 2922. Portugal (Province of St Thomé and Principe). Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table. SEAMEN'S SAVINGS BANKS, MONEY ORDERS, AND TRANSMISSION OF WAGES. Account of all deposits received and repaid by the Board of Trade, under the authority of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, during the year ended 20th November 1901, and of the interest thereon. Statement showing the number and amount of seamen's money orders issued and paid, at ports in the United Kingdom and at ports abroad, from 1855 to 31st March 1902. Also, statement showing the receipts and payments in connection with the transmission of seamen's wages, home and foreign, from 1878 to 31st March, 1902. GENERAL LIGHTHOUSE FUND. An account of the General Lighthouse Fund, showing the income and expenditure for the year ended 31st March 1902. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table. VENEZUELA-ANGLO-GERMAN EARL SPENCER: I rise to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in the event of the seizure of Venezuelan gunboats failing to produce the desired effect, His Majesty's Government propose to take further measures for the purpose of coercing the Venezuelan Government; and, if so, whether he is able to state what the nature of those measures will be. *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (the MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE): In the event which the noble Lord supposes, further measures of coercion will, no doubt, be inevitable. The question has been considered by His Majesty's Government, in consultation. with the German Government; and it has been decided, as I think will be VOL CXVI. [FOURTH SERIES.] evident from the general tenor of the Blue-book, to resort to a blockade of the Venezuelan ports, some of which will be blockaded by British and some by German ships of war. It is not, however, intended to land a British force, and still less to occupy Venezuelan territory. LONDON WATER BILL. Amendments reported (according to Order). THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH) said there were a number of Amendments on the Paper in his name, but with only two exceptions they dealt purely with points of drafting. When they came to those two Amendments he would make a short statement explaining them. Drafting Amendments agreed to. He LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to leave out the latter part of subSection 6 of Clause 9 (which deals with the transfer of the undertaking of the New River Company to the Water Board), in order to insert a new sub-Section. said that the New River Company was different from all other companies in that the property was vested in the owners of the Adventurers' and King's shares, and that the Company only administered the property for the owners. The transfer of the undertaking would convert property which was now realty into personalty, and that change would work hardship in certain possible cases. The Clause as originally introduced proposed that the shares and water stock issued should be treated as land; but it had been objected that that form of Clause would impress the character of real property on the stock for all time. The object of the Amendment was to limit the time during which the stock should hold that character, and the limit proposed was the appointed day, and such time afterwards as elapsed before the property passed naturally into the hands of someone who was entitled to dispose of it. There could be no doubt as to the franchise question being covered by the Clause Amendment moved, "In Clause 9, page 7, line 32, to leave out and to insert as from section' to the end of the sub-Section, а new sub-Section: (7.) Every Adventurers' share and every King's 3 A share, and every part of an Adventurers' or King's share, and any water stock issuable or issued in respect of any such share or part of a share, and the right to receive any such water stock shall-(i) until the appointed day; and (ii) after the appointed day, but thereafter only unless or until-(a) some person who is sui juris is absolutely entitled beneficially in possession to or has a general power to dispose of such share or part of a share, or such water stock; or (b) such share or part of a share, or such water stock or the right to receive such water stock, is transferred on a sale to a purchaser for all purposes of disposition, transmission, and devolution, be considered as land, and (so far as regards such water stock or right to receive water stock) be held for and go to the same persons in the same manner and for and on the same estates, interests, and trusts as the Adventurers' or King's share, or the part of an Adventurers' or King's share, in respect of which the water stock is issuable or issued, would have been held and have gone under any will, settlement, or other instrument affecting that share or part of a share, or otherwise, if this Act had not been passed. For the purposes of this provision the expression 'general power' includes every power or authority enabling the donee or other holder thereof to appoint or dispose of the fee simple or absolute interest of or in property in possession as he thinks fit, but exclusively of any power exercisable in a fiduciary capacity or exercisable as tenant for life under the Settled Land Acts, 1882 to 1890, or as mortgagee.'”—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.) LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH moved to insert a new sub-Section in Clause 43 (payment of dividends till discharge of compensation). He said that the object of the Amendment was to meet the case of the Kent Company, the proprietors of which had the right, if the maximum dividend was not paid in any year, to have the arrears made up in subsequent years. The Amendment provided that the proprietors should not receive more than ten per cent, on the capital between the appointed day and the date of satisfaction. That period of time would, he hoped, be a short one, but it had been suggested, to remove all possibility of dispute, that this proviso should be inserted, and he believed it was matter of agreement. a Amendment moved. "In Clause 43, page 28, line 30, after that' to insert, (a) if the amount payable in any year under this section to any company exceeds the amount which, by reason of any limitation on the dividend of that company, would have been distributable as dividend if this Act had not been passed, the excess shall not be paid to the company; and (b),”—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.) On Question, Amendment agreed to. Drafting Amendments to Clauses 45 and 47 agreed to. Drafting Amendment Schedule agreed to. to Second On Schedule 3 (constitution and proceedings of Water Board :— to LORD COLERIDGE proposed amend Section 3 in order to provide that a director of a me ropolitan water company or a shareholder being himself beneficially interested in the share or shares standing in his name shall, until the compensation payable to the company is determined, be disqualified from being appointed or being a member of the Water Board. He said it seemed to him that the persons who were to enter into this contract should be without beneficial interest in it on one side or the other. This principle was carried through all their legislation. For instance, a licensing justice who might hold only one share in a brewery company at the other side of England was disqualified from acting as a licensing justice. Surely, They was only right, therefore, that no member of the Water Board should be a shareholder in any one of the companies which were to be purchased. might be honest persons enough, but they could not be held to be indifferent to the interests of the Water Companies of which they were shareholders. By only disqualifying a director, the Clause held out an encouragement to large shareholders to come forward for election on the Board. The Amendment would not affect trustees, and he hoped the noble Lord in charge of the Bill would accept it. |