That is a clear and definite statement as to who is to have the superintendence of the religious instruction. In contrast to that, the trust deed then says but in all other respects the control and management of such school and premises, and of the funds and SO on,' shall be vested in and exercised by a Committee consisting of "so and so. Therefore your Lordships will see that this very distinction upon which my noble friend Lord James has bestowed so much emphasis is clearly recognised in the trust deed already, because it has given the control and management using those very words-in lay matters to the Committee, while it has given the superintendence of the religious instruction to another person altogether. I ask the Committee this: Is it possible to say that the Kenyon-Slaney Amendment, which has been adopted by the Government, does not enact that the superintendence of the religious and moral instruction shall not be with the minister, but with this new-fangled body? What is the result of that? You have a new body of managers, unaccustomed to their duties, and they are told that they are to superintend the religious and moral instruction of these young people,

It seems to me

But for that check, I, for one, look not
to this irregular and hybrid tribunal, but
to the constitutional authorities of the
Church. I have no licence to teach,
much less to lecture, and least of all to
lecture my pastors and masters; but I
make no doubt of this, that among the
signs of the times which will be taken to
heart by the Bishops of our Church this
is not the least, and I believe it constitutes
a strong appeal to them to exercise more
firmly than they have done before
their powers of superintendence both
in schools and in church. But is that a
reason why we should do this great
wrong? Is it a reason why we should
subvert the trust deeds which have
created the schools?
that you are merely making an excursion
out of the region of education into that
of theology, and trying by a side-wind to
correct errors which ought to be faced
boldly, if faced at all. May I add
one word more? If it is thought well
have a crusade against Ritualism
in the wrong place, may I ask
whether you have prospered so well in
previous crusades against Ritualism?
Have you succeeded in checking the
Ritualism which you are now con-
roundabout way you will succeed in
demning? Is it likely that in this
do by open measures? Standing here,
achieving that which you have failed to
not as a Churchman--because this is not a
Church question at all-but standing here
in defence of the rights created by trust
deeds for that is the ground on which I
go--I, as a Tory supporter of the Govern-
ment, most heartily protest against a
measure which is certain to be cited as
warranting incursions, inroads, and
forays upon trust deeds.

to

and the Government come forward with an air of triumph and say, "We have solved the question, because we have given an appeal to the Bishop." But the odd thing is that they give an appeal, not from the minister in charge, as is the case under the trust deed, but from this new body of laymen, who are to experiment in knocking up some popular religion which will suit the susceptibilities of the ratepayers. That is the plain English of it. Let me press that home still further. What is the reason of the introduction of this Clause at all? How does it fit in with this hybrid tribunal ? The avowed object of the author of the Kenyon-Slaney Clause, who is an old Parliamentary comrade of mine, was to aim a blow at Ritualism being taught in on what principle they are going to support this new establishment. the schools. I have no opinion at all adverse it was a sound principle that, if denominato that suspicion; nay, I go this length, tional teaching was to be tolerated at all, that I think there is a good deal of folly in it was at least to be held apart from Ritualism, and a very great deal in anti-secular education, and was not to be Ritualism; but I am ready to suppose that mixed up with it. Now, noble Lords there are excesses in the direction of opposite are going to vote for setting up Ritualism, or of the doctrines associated a delegation of County Councillors to with Ritualism, which ought to be checked. regulate some sort of Church of England

Having ventured to speak with this freedom, may I turn from the Eldons and Sidmouths of the Front Bench towhat shall I say-the Pyms and Hampdens the other side of the House. I should like to ask

on

I think

as

teaching and doctrine. What warrant is | Amendment was brought forward was to there for that? I suppose it will be said put down Ritualism in the Church. There that those crying injustices which have is surely a great difference between Ritualdriven noble Lords into such extremities ism in the Church and Ritualism in those of speech warrant irregularities in legisla- schools of ours which are governed by tion. I should like to remind them of trust deeds. As some of your Lordships the broad facts of the case. First of may be aware, in my diocese there are all you have in your board schools altogether 2,300 beneficed clergy more education exactly to your liking, and you than in any other diocese in England. have your rating. Noble Lords speak East Anglia is supposed to be a part of if the whole rates of the coun- Great Britain which is not particularly try were paid by Nonconformists, under the influence of the Church, and but they are rating the whole coun- which has always been distinguished for try for the education which they Puritan opinion. I have now been Bishop prefer. Now turn to our Church of of the East Anglian diocese for between England schools. There is a Conscience nine and ten years, and how many comClause which absolves you from the plaints do you suppose I have had of necessity of sending your children to the mistaken teaching in the Church schools? religious part of the education in Church East Anglians are by no means disinclined schools. Those two precautions and to make complaints to the Bishop, and I safeguards of the Nonconformist con- have had a good many complaints on science have been supplemented by the different grounds. But with regard to Church of England in a manner which, I this particular point I have had one believe, will be remarked upon in history. complaint, and one only, of mistaken Not merely by individual Members of or disliked teaching in our Church Parliament, who represent the opinions schools. That complaint was made prevalent in the Church of England, but not by a Nonconformist, but by a also by the Houses of Convocation, this representative of the Church. Νο offer has been made: "If in Church of specific charge was brought against the England schools you dislike the teaching, clergyman in question, but he was uncome and take your children and teach popular because his Ritualistic opinions them in your own way." That has been had alienated many of his people. formally offered, and it is a standing was teaching in his school, a certain numoffer; but it has never been accepted. ber of children had been withdrawn from Of course it is impossible to suspect Non- the religious teaching, and I was appealed conformists of being arrogant; but if it to, quite properly, in accordance with the had been anybody else but Nonconformists, trust deed. I found that the complaint I should have said that it was the height was well grounded. It was quite undesirof arrogance first to rate us for the able that the clergyman should continue schools which suit them in religious teaching in the school. I desired him to doctrine, and then, having a Conscience desist from teaching, and he desisted, and Clause, to insist upon managing the the matter ended. I do not see why that religious teaching which they do not should not occur in every case. In ninerequire their children to receive; and, tenths of our Church schools it is disfinally, to reject what I have described tinctly laid down in the trust deed that as this standing offer, which I say an appeal shall lie to the Bishop, whose is conclusive as to the fairness and equity decision in writing shall be final. Upon of the position of the Church of England. that, therefore, there can be no question There is much more to be said on this at all. If the people appealed to the most interesting subject, but I hope I Bishop under the trust deed I believe the have said enough to justify my interven- matter would be satisfactorily decided, as tion in the debate; and the only remain was done in the instance I have mentioned. ing duty I have to perform-speaking I am not aware that any of my Episcopal as I do for the first time in this House brethren have ever failed to adjust the is to thank your Lordships for the great matter satisfactorily when they have been indulgence with which I have been heard. appealed to. It seems to me, therefore, that you have a remedy at hand already. Mention has been made of clergy who err by giving Ritualistic teaching. I have no doubt that there are a few such, but in

THE LORD BISHOP OF NORWICH: We have just heard, not for the first time, that the reason why this Kenyon-Slaney Lord Robertson.

He

of those 72,900, only 329 have been withdrawn from some portion of the religious teaching, while those who have been taken by their parents from all the religious teaching number only thirty five, and I am told that the majority of those thirty-five are children either of members of the Roman Church or of Jews. Does not that show beyond all possibility of doubt, that the parents speaking generally, are thoroughly satisfied with the teaching given by the clergy in the schools? Concerning the general well-being of the Church in this matter, your Lordships are aware of the great difficulty which we Bishops find in obtaining clergy to fill the vacant cures and curacies. Are you doing that which would move men to come forward for the sacred ministry? Is it not the desire of the laity that the clergy of the Church of England should in the future, as in the past, be men of learning, high education, scholarship, culture, and gentleman-like manner. Hitherto the clergy have been men of high education and culture, and one reason has been that the status of the English clergyman, though not bringing him in great wealth, has been one of comparative independence. If you thus limit his prerogatives, hinder him in the discharge of his duties, and cramp him by allowing him no longer to discharge what he regards as his duty-namely, to teach the young of his flock. do you not think it likely that men of independent minds will become less and less inclined to enter the ministry of the Church? Surely in this matter the interests of the clergy and of the laity are precisely the

my diocese I have met only one such case. On the other hand, there is a very large class of clergy with whom, thank God, many of your Lordships are well acquainted, venerable and venerated men, such as your Archdeacons, men of large and high scholarship, perhaps Fellows of their College, who have been living among their people, loving them, and being beloved, and who, likely enough, have built the schools themselves, or have been instrumental in getting them built, and through whose efforts they have been maintained for several years these men have taught unquestioned in their schools. But what do you do by this Clause? You tell these venerable and venerated clergy, who may be counted by hundreds, that their position with regard to the young of their flock is to be entirely changed. They are no longer to be allowed to teach in their schools unless they meet with the consent of a body of men, three of whom are their own parishioners very worthy men, but perhaps quite illiterate-and two imported by an extraneous, if not alien, body. Is that right? Must you not feel that these men will be very deeply wounded at the treatment they are receiving? The clergy feel that they are being treated in this matter in an ungenerous manner. When we consider the zeal of the clergymen of the Church of England on behalf of their schools, and remember that 11,000 schools have been built mainly through their exertions, is it surprising, now that this slur is to be cast upon them, and the right they have hitherto had of teaching the lambs of their flock is to be taken away from them, and they are only to be permitted to discharge clergy or seem to cast a slight upon them, If you in any way depress the that duty, if they are allowed, by two or it must surely end in injury to the three of their parishioners, and two or three strangers, that they should Church at large, including the laity. I feel that they are being treated in should just like to point out that, an ungrateful and ungenerous manner? from my point of view the Kenyon-Slaney I am persuaded that of Amendment infringes an essential principle our clergy will feel it very sorely; of the Church. What do we Bishops say they will be disheartened at being thus when we commission a man to go down slighted, and, human nature being what into his parish? The solemn words we it is, will lose, in some degree, their use to him in the name of the Church interest in the schools. Can that be for are "We commit unto you the cure the good of the education of the young and government of the souls of the It is quite evident to me that there is no parishioners of the said parish," that is to real dissatisfaction with the religious say, the Church, acting through the teaching given by the clergy in our Bishop, gives to that individual man schools. In my diocese, thanks be to jurisdiction or spiritual authority in the God, we have nearly 72,900 children parish to which he is going, and in that being taught in the Church schools. Out parish he is recognised, not only by the

many

same.

CONTENTS.

*THE EARL OF HALSBURY: In ask- or less anticipated the consideration of ing your Lordships' attention to the this Clause. The most convenient course, Amendment I am about to move, II think, would be to state at once that cannot but feel that that attention has had a considerable draft already made upon it by discussions which have more

the object of this Amendment is not to make any alteration in the intended meaning of the sub-Section known by