to perform which will be of the utmost importance to the non-provided schools. They will, at any rate, be an advisory committee, and very possibly they may be delegates of the County Council to carry into effect all the provisions of the Act. They will have, for instance, to deal with the question of repairs, which is a vital question for many of the smaller nonprovided schools. They will have to deal with the question of extension of schools and the provision of new schools. They will have to deal with salaries to be allotted to teachers, and the number of teachers, and though I do not for a moment suppose that there will be any partiality on any education committee, yet there will be a natural bias for schools provided and maintained by themselves rather than for schools outside their own particular province. It is of great importance that the views of the managers of the non-provided schools with regard to equality of scheme and equipment of every kind should be presented, at least, to the committee? Then they have the absolute control over the syllabus and over the text-books to be used. I can hardly fancy a point upon which the education committees are more likely (perhaps unwittingly) to go against the wishes of the managers of the nonprovided schools if they do not hear what they have to say. A committee might recommend as a historical book Foxe's "Book of Martyrs," which might not suit some of the managers. There might be a variety of text-books upon which the managers of non-provided schools ought to be heard, because the peace of the schools and the pecuniary interests of the schools would be concerned. What chance have the managers of certain denominational schools in this country of any representation on the education committee. The Church of England is certain always to have both on the Council and on the education committee, members of their denomination who will, of course, present the case of the non-provided schools belonging to the Church of England; but the religious minorities, the Wesleyans, the Jews, the Roman Catholics, will not have the remotest chance of getting a member on the education committee, except by means of some such Amendment that which I now propose.

appoint a voice in the religious instruction of the school, and selected as they may be by the education committee, they may prove extraordinarily inconvenient and distasteful to the other managers of these schools. Surely it is only fair and just that somebody should be able to present to the education committee the views of the managers of the class of schools to which I refer. As I said, these small schools will have no chance of getting upon the education committees without some such provision. Noble Lords will observe that I limit the Amendment in two ways; in the first place, that the association shall be approved by the Board of Education, and therefore that it must be an Association which the Board of Education think competent to nominate a person who will be of use to the committee in the cause of education; and in the next place, there is the further condition that the nomination is not to apply to any class of schools except some class that would not otherwise obtain representation. So that if the County Council put a member of the denomination on the education committee of their own accord the right of nomination would not accrue. It is only to save these schools from being wholly unrepresented on a committee which is to deal with a variety of subjects which touch their pockets and affect in the strongest way the whole of the educational prosperity of the school, that I ask that this right of nomination shall be given to associations such as I have described. I shall be told, perhaps, by the noble Duke who, I trust, will at least meet this Amendment with indulgence and sympathy, that under the words "other bodies such an association of voluntary schools as I have been speaking of could offer a nomination, but as I read the Clause that nomination need not be in the scheme. And that brings me observe upon certain remarks that have fallen from Lord Northbrook and other noble Lords on that side of the House as to the effect of this Clause. It appears to me clear that unless the scheme names the body who is to nominate a member of the education committee, the body will have no right at all of making a nomination, and, consequently, no chance of getting an appointment. "Where it is

to

desirable" I think means, as the noble Duke said, desirable to the Council; therefore, if the Council do not think it desirable to nominate a particular body, that body would never get an appointment made. I quite agree that the Board of Education is not powerless in the matter; I think they have got a discretion also, because any scheme must be approved by them; consequently-I will not take an association of voluntary schools as an example, but I will take the case already put of Owens College, Manchester-the Board of Education might say "we will not approve of this scheme unless it includes Owens College, Manchester, as having a right to nominate." Then Owens College would get into the scheme; but unless the scheme fixes the body who has the right to nominate, that right will not arise. If the body gets nominated in the scheme, then the appointment will follow. I am interested-of course I need not tell your Lordships in the Roman Catholic schools, but what I am asking for is not for the benefit of Roman Catholic schools alone. The same privilege would attach to Jewish schools, and Wesleyan schools, and there may be places where even the powerful Church of England might be glad to take advantage of this Amendment. For aught I know there are some districts in Wales, and in some large boroughs, perhaps(Leicester, for example), in which the Church of England would not have a member of the Church of England on the education committee, and in which, therefore, an association of voluntary schools belonging to the Church of England ought, according to the principle of this Amendment, to have the right of nominating a member to state their case on the education committee. I agree that such an association of voluntary schools as I have described may be possibly admitted to be one of the bodies who might be in the scheme, but the chance of their being in the scheme laid down by the County Council is not a very proximate chance. Boards of Education are not infallible, and there might be Boards of Education who absolutely refuse to sanction any scheme of this sort. Therefore it is that I put my Amendment after the word "nomination" and before the words "where it appears desirable." I do hope that your Lordships will think that I am not asking too much when I ask that an association of Viscount Llandaff.

schools belonging to a religious minority, possibly a minority that is in the locality extremely unpopular and even odious, should yet have a representative on a committee which is to deal with matters of the closest and dearest interest to them. I believe I should be out of order if I quote the words used in another place by the Prime Minister, but he said that he thought there ought to be some method discovered, by which the representation of these religious minorities should be ensured on the education committees. Noble Lords opposite have repeatedly urged that all interests ought to be represented, and I am now pleading for an interest which, unless it has a voice, is not unlikely to receive unjust treatment at the hands of some education committees. I trust I shall be met with some sympathy from the "adamantine front" of the noble Duke, and I can only appeal to him that he will not entirely refuse the scheme of the Amendment.

Amendment moved

"In page 10, line 16, after nomination' to insert of associations of voluntary schools within their area, approved by the Board of Education, and comprising a class of schools which would not otherwise obtain representation on the committee, &c."

LORD REDESDALE: I must apologise for intervening in this debate, being so recently a Member of your Lordships' House, but this Amendment of my noble friend's affects a class in which I am very largely interested. It appears to me that the Amendment, while safeguarding the class of schools to which my noble friend referred, cuts out other bodies.

*VISCOUNT LLANDAFF: No, I do not cut them out. I leave other bodies subject to the pleasure of the County Council first, and of the Education Department, but "and other bodies remains exactly where it is after the words "where it appears desirable."

be specifically mentioned, other ways of providing what the noble Lord desires might be found. But I understand that something very much approaching a pledge has been given by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons on this subject, and I think I may say that we will undertake to deal with the matter on Report. I do not think the Amendment drafted by the noble Lord could be accepted, but we will undertake to insert the words "including associations of voluntary schools" after the word "bodies," so that the Clause would run : "For the appointment by the Council on the nomination, where it appears desirable, of other bodies, including associations of schools." and so on. If necessary, the matter can be further discussed on Report, but I will at once move that those words be there inserted.

ceased to be members of the Council. That was an anomaly that ought to be remedied. What period was to be placed on membership of the committee? Were the nominated members to be members for life, or for a definite period? In the Lower House, Sir William Anson had said that nobody had ever dreamt that the Committees were to be permanent bodies, and expressed the view that members of the Council on the committee would cease to be on the committee when they ceased to be members of the Council. But what then would be the position of the committee? It would be left with only the co-opted members. His Amendment was framed to meet the double case of the County Council and the Borough Councils. Members of the latter went out in thirds, and therefore the Council itself never came to an end; he therefore proposed that no member of an education committee, whether a member of a Borough Council or of a County Council, should remain a member of the committee for more than three years.

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education committees. If the mittee were merely a committee of the Council of a County Borough, of course it would come to an end with the life of the body who appointed it. If the view of the Government was that an education committee of a County Council was in the same position, there would be no need of this Amendment, but he understood the education committee was not a committee of the County Council; in other words, the County Council was capable of nominating persons on to the education committee, who would remain members of the committee long after they had

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE said this was a question to be decided rather in the scheme than in the Bill. SubSection (2) of Clause 22 provided that—

"Any scheme or Provisional Order under this Act may contain such incidental or consequential provisions as may appear necessary or expedient."

It would not be desirable to lay down exactly the same conditions for every scheme.

Amendment negatived.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said that sub-Section (4) provided that a person should be disqualified for memheld office or place of profit, or had any bership of an education committee who share or interest in a contract, and so on, but it wound up that

"No such disqualification shall apply to a person by reason only of his holding office in a school or college, aided, provided or mainained by the Council."

His original intention was (and it would perhaps have been more logical) to move to delete this proviso altogether; but it had been pointed out to him that it might be desirable that a person should be on the committee who belonged to a college, and therefore he would content himself with proposing to leave out the words "school or." He held that the proper place for a schoolmaster was in his school, and it would be no gain to the school or to the committee if the schoolmaster left his school work and devoted his time to the work of the ccmmittee, as would frequently be the case.

Amendment moved

"In page 10, line 31, to leave out 'school or.""(The Earl of Camperdown.)

*THE LORD BISHOP OF HEREFORD asked how the noble Earl differentiated between a school and a college. In the definition Clause the word "college" was declared to include "any educational institution, whether residential or not." Would anything, therefore, be gained by the omission in this Section of the words "school or "?

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said he was not the draftsman of the Bill, and was not responsible for its definitions, or anything else.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE said the Government substantially agreed with the noble Earl, but he thought the case could be best met by the addition to the sub-Section of the words "otherwise than under Part III. of this Act." That would exclude teachers in elementary schools.

*EARL SPENCER: Will it also exclude teachers in a college?

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: No.

* EARL SPENCER: I cannot quite see the difference. If you exclude a teacher in an elementary school because he may be interested in a subject coming up before the Committee, does not the same argument apply to a teacher in a college within the county?

THE LORD BISHOP OF SALIS BURY: I rather regret the decision of the Government, for this reason. On the The Earl of Camperdown.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I will not press it.

Amendment, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19:-

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Sub-Section (c) of this Clause runs thus

"The County Council shall charge such portion as they think fit, not being less thar one-half or more than three-fourths of any expenses incurred by them in respect of capital expenditure on account of the provision or improvement of any public elementary school on the parish or parishes which in the opinion of the Council are served by the school.”