Longford Royal Canal. MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the drowning of two men last week at Longford, owing to the unprotected state of the Royal Canal; will he state how many persons have been drowned in the same portion of the canal during the last ten years; and whether he will consider the advisability of instituting a prosecution against the persons responsible for its present condition. MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir; the Urban District Council has directed attention to this matter. The question whether it is practicable for the Government to take action is now engaging consideration, Seven persons have been drowned in the canal at this point during the past ten years. Clonmel Magistracy and Police. MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the religious persuasions of the county inspector, district inspector, head constable, and resident magistrate in Clonmel, the capital of Tipperary; how many Roman Catholic magistrates have been appointed by the present lieutenant of the county; and whether any steps will be taken to equalise the number of Roman Catholics and Protestants so employed. persons have been arrested in Ireland during the last three months on the supposition that they were the escaped convict Lynchehann; what compensation has been paid to the persons so arrested and detained; and whether further instructions will be issued to the Royal Irish Constabulary in this case. MR. WYNDHAM: Two persons were arrested on suspicion. No compensation has been paid to them. The value of instructions given to the police in such cases would be discounted if announced beforehand. MR. TULLY: Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to provide Ireland with a proper detective force ? [No answer was returned.] Ardagh Cathedral. MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the Board of Works have received a complaint from the Rev. Canon O'Farrell, Ardagh, County Longford, as to the state of the ruins of St. Mels Cathedral at Ardagh; and whether he can state what steps will be 1 taken to preserve these ancient monu ments. MR. HAYES FISHER: Communica tions on the subject have been received from Canon O'Farrell, but the ruins are not vested in the Commissioners of Public Works, nor can they take any action towards vesting them except at the request of the owner. The ownership is vested in the representative Church body. MR. WYNDHAM : The officials referred to in the first part of the Question are Protestants. Of the remainder of the police force at Clonmel, twenty-three are Roman Catholics and seven Protestants. The religious propor-Hill-street (Roscommon) Sub-postmaster. tions of the entire force in this Riding of Tipperary, according to the latest MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Postreturns, are Roman Catholics, 234; master General whether he can state on Protestants, 53. The present lieutenant what grounds was Mr. John Beirne of the county has appointed nine removed from the office of sub-postmaster Justices of the Peace in the Clonmel at Hillstreet, County Roscommon, after district, of whom five are Roman 23 years service; and whether any Catholics. He will be happy to consider the names of any other eligible gentlemen of this persuasion that may be submitted to him. Convict Lynchehann's Escape. refund has been made to Mr. Beirne for stamps supplied by him during the last month of the tenure of office at his own expense. MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN : Mr. Beirne was removed from office because he had no suitable house in which to carry on Post Office business and is not likely to be able to provide one. So far as is known no payment is due to him from the Post Office. Examination for Women Clerks in the Dublin Post Office. Mr. TULLY: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether he can state what period has elapsed since the last examinations were held in Dublin for women clerkships in the General Post Office; when it is proposed to hold a further examination; and what notice will be given to the candidates who are now preparing for it. Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN : The last examination held at Dublin for the situation of women clerks in the General Post Office took place in October; 1901. It cannot at present be stated when it will be necessary to hold another examination, but due notice thereof will be given by the Civil Service Commissioners. BRUSSELS SUGAR CONVENTION-PERSONAL EXPLANATION (MR. A. J. BALFOUR). THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I should like to say a word of personal explanation. On December 5th I answered an unstarred Question of the hon. Member for King's Lynn, who, I am very sorry to see, is not in his place. I ought to have given him private notice as to the purport of my answer. But the hon. Member asked me whether the Secretary to the Board of Trade in 1881 had in a memorandum stated that it had been decided by the highest legal authority that to impose a countervailing duty in order to neutralise a foreign bounty on sugar would be contrary to the mostfavoured-nation clause in existing commercial treaties, and whether the legal authority thus referred to was that of the law officers of the Crown. In answer to that I said that we have no record of any opinion by the law officers given at that time upon the subject." I I now find on further investigation that that answer was incorrect. I have no doubt myself that Lord Farrer was referring to the law officers as the highest legal authority, and it is the fact that there is 66 on record an opinion of the law officers in 1880 which is in accordance with Lord Farrer's statement. MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON (Dundee): Can we have that opinion? The MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No. matter came before the House of Commons Committee sitting on the sugar question, and the opinion of the law officers was shown in confidence to the Committee. The substance of it, I imagine, can be discovered from the cross-examination pursued; but it was felt by the Foreign Office at the time-and quite rightly felt that it would be contrary to all precedent and would be most inconvenient if the ipsissima verba of the law officers' opinion ment and public discussion. But it is the should be made a matter of public statefact that Lord Farrer has accurately stated the general tenor of the law officers' opinion of that day. MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.): In view of this fact, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his objections to give a further opportunity of discussing this most important question? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not see the relevance between a discussion of the question as it is and the opinion given at that time. MR. LOUGH: It shows that the policy you are pursuing will be in contravention of the other commercial treaties which exist. Besides, it raises a large question. MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not quite prepared to admit the hon. Member's contention. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. (2.30.) SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Can the Prime Minister forecast the probabilities in regard to the Education Bill, and the business generally for next week? MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The main business of the remaining part of the session is the consideration of the Lords' Amendments to the Education Bill, which may or may not occupy discussion in this House. That, of course, I cannot tell. Besides that, the House has really one's to finish the business now before it-the | they were asked to vote that day, Uganda Railway Bill, the Osborne Estate £5,550,000, and the railway was being conBill, and the Militia and Yeomanry Bill, ducted at a very heavy annual loss. What about which an arrangement generally excuses were being made for that extraagreeable on both sides has been come ordinary miscalculation? The first was, to. There is no possibility that this as he gathered from what was said House will be able to discuss the by the Under Secretary, that the exLords' Amendments before Tuesday. No pense incurred in making the part doubt the Bill will be down then, and I of the railway near the coast, over very shall propose to devote the whole, or the level and dry ground, led those who main part, of Tuesday to dealing with were controlling the works to form an them. On Friday of this week the inadequate estimate of the rest of the business will be the Irish Local Govern- line, because they argued from what was ment Bill, and on Monday the remain-being spent on that part of the line, that ing stages of the Bills I have just named. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. That they have agreed to, Expiring Laws Continuance Bill; Electric Lighting Acts Amendment (Scotland) Bill, without Amendment. UGANDA RAILWAY [GRANT]—(REPORT). Resolution reported "That it is expedient to authorise the issue, out of the Consolidated Fund, of a further sum not exceeding £600,000 for the purposes of the Uganda Railway." (2.35.) MR. BRYCE (Aberdeen, S.) said he would like at the outset of this discus the total expenditure would be somewhere within their original limits. That was an extraordinary miscalculation for anyone who knew anything of tropical countries to make. It was not merely because the coast area for about 270 miles inland was comparatively level, but also because it was comparatively dry. But everyone who knew the tropics knew that it was when they reached the highlands of the interior that the rainfall should have been determined was the became heavy, and the first thing that rainfall to be expected in the interior. The country in the interior, as the House knew, rose to a height of eight or nine thousand feet, and the great tropical rains came up from the Indian Ocean, impinged against these mountains, and fell. These torrential rains had proved ever so much more severe than was expected, and to say that the experience gained near the coast was taken as an evidence of what would happen afterwards, was to show an extraordinary want of knowledge and foresight. They were also told by the Under Secretary that the weather experienced was most exceptional. He supposed no Member of the House had ever travelled in any country without having been told the weather was exceptional. This country had been in our hands for ten or twelve years, and the Government had had admirable opportunities of surveying it and making all these preliminary inquiries. It did seem perfectly extraordinary that they should have been taken by surprise in this way. The Under Secretary had said that they did not know sion to say a few words upon this Vote. It was perfectly true that the time had passed when criticism could remedy anything that had happened already. The money had been spent. The extravagance was past, and some one might say that there was no great use of crying over spilt milk. But if those who spilt the milk were allowed to do so without having any observations addressed to them on their conduct, things would not be better, and might be worse. They have now had for the second or third time an extraordinary instance of miscalculation on the part of a Government Department. He did not think there had been for years past anything to parallel the want of wisdom and foresight in regard to this railway. The estimate had been fallacious. Every time that Ministers had come and asked for further expenditure they had apologised for what had happened, and promised that things would be better, and yet, in a year or eighteen months, a fresh the country, but why did not they know demand had been made. The first it, and why did they not have a proper surestimate was £3,000,000. They had vey Could anything be imagined more now spent, including the estimate which short-sighted than to enter upon an Mr. A. J. Balfour. undertaking which, on the most hopeful did not go to Uganda for commercial hypothesis, was bound to be most costly, objects. That, no doubt, was perfectly without having a proper survey? The true. He would not go into the general tribes which had rendered a large part of reasons as to why Uganda was taken, the territory unsafe had practically dis- and what sort of dominion it was likely appeared, and it would have been per- to prove. But let him say that he could fectly possible to carry out a complete not accept the rosy views which the survey from the shore of the lake all the Under Secretary was bound to present to way down to the coast. Why was not them. Anyone sitting on the Treasury that done? It might have taken a little Bench was bound to be an optimist. time; the commencement of the railway But was there really any reason to expect might have been delayed a year; but how a considerable commercial development much better it would have been in the within any time that we could foresee of long run to spend that time in preparing such a country as Uganda and the a survey than to embark on an under- country between the Great Lake and the taking of this kind with imperfect know- sea? It was quite true that Uganda ledge. He could not understand how, and the same could not be said of most above all things, one fundamental principle of the country towards the sea-that had not forced itself upon the minds of Uganda proper, and to some extent the those who were responsible. Why not countries immediately surrounding it and have given the work out by contract? stretching west, were naturally rich The Under Secretary said that he countries. doubted whether any contractor would have undertaken such an uncertain work. Did he try? Was it properly advertised Was every reasonable effort made to get a contractor to come in and offer? Was everything done that could have been done to relieve the Foreign Office of responsibilities, and troubles, and uncertainties connected with such a work, and to put it into the hands of those whose business experience and professional skill enabled them properly to deal with it? If it were the case that the knowledge was so imperfect, it was surely all the more reason why time should have been spent in surveying. He could not understand why, if the Foreign Office had to do the work itself, it should have entered upon it without the fullest knowledge of all the obstacles that had to be encountered. He could not understand how a Department like the Foreign Office should be considered capable of turning itself into the business of a contractor and engineer and undertake a work of this character. They had to think of the future. They had been told already that there was a heavy annual loss in working the line. Of course that was to be expected. The Under Secretary pleaded that we were saving something in the conveyance of stores. No doubt we were, but we were not saving anything which could be represented as a large reduction of the very heavy loss that was being experienced. What prospect was there for the future? It was said in the debate two or three days ago that we They were fertile, were not indeed healthy, but were capable of being rendered more healthy, and they could produce a great variety of tropical produce. But apart from the difficulty of transporting these tropical products, there was one real and underlying difficulty which applied to all these tropical territories, and which those who had not been in the tropics and had not seen the native on his native steppe, very imperfectly realised. That was the difficulty of labour. The native did not want to work. Why should he work? With a very little trouble he could produce what he wanted and live contented. People in these matters were rather misled by the example of India, where they had had civilisation for thousands of years, and the people had contracted habits of steady industry. There the people were always at work, and they were able to pay for our commodities; the popu lation was increasing fast, and there was a porportionate increase in their exports and in their demand for imports. But in Uganda we had nothing of the kind, We had a comparatively thinly popu lated district, and the people led an easy happy-go-lucky life. They did not want to work; they had not the habit of working. They did not want our commodities, they were satisfied with what they had got. No doubt these things would change. The solvent and assimilating influences of civilisation would in the course of a century or two completely change the character of these people, and that civilisation which we saw in the Strand would be found in Uganda. It would not be so interesting a world, but he supposed things would be SO. But these things belonged to the future. The prospects of producing in Uganda sufficient to create an export trade, the prospects of a market to create an import trade, lay in the comparatively distant future. He knew that high authorities like Sir Harry Johnston entertained a high opinion of the country. He did not deny the country would improve, but would it improve itself enough for us to see our way to make this line a paying concern, and actually, as in a burst of optimism the noble Lord assured them, pay for the loan within 15 or 20 years which we were now making for the purpose of this railway. (2.52) MR. BRYNMOR JONES (Swansea, District) said he entirely agreed with many of the observations which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, but he did not think that he had adequately expressed the opinion of some Members on that side of the House with regard to this railway undertaking. He did not look upon it, as the right hon. Gentleman apparently did, as one which we were forced reluctantly to carry out because we had taken the Uganda Protectorate. MR. BRYCE: I did not say anything of the kind. I merely said I would not discuss the question of the Protectorate. MR. BRYNMOR JONES said he was *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF sorry if he misunderstood the right hon. STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS Gentleman, but he certainly thought he (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester): I did not spoke as if this country were, on that say that was my opinion, but the opinion ground, committed to the railway. Perof very much better judges than my-sonally, he approached the question from self, and I quoted Sir Harry Johnston and Sir George Goldie. MR. BRYCE said he was glad to see that the Foreign Office contained a man who viewed with critical scepticism these optimistic views. It was very unfortunate that we should be making all these loans; we were complicating and confusing our finance by the different colonial loans for different purposes. They disturbed the general position of the country, and people did not realise the various liabilities into which they were being led by these steps. He could not see that they could refuse this money. It was quite true, if anything was to be made of the country, they must have railways and steamboats. He would not go further into these matters. He believed the Member for Cleveland, who had been in the country, would be able to tell them something more about the causes of delay and the making of provisional lines. But he did think that without refusing to vote the money, it was their duty to have a discussion, and by debate to mark their sense of the mistakes that had been committed, and to endeavour to convey to the Foreign Office that it must not in the future undertake work of which its imperfect knowledge and defective experience render it, with all the talent it possesses for its own proper work, entirely incompetent. Mr. Bryce. the point of view that these railway lines were a necessary accompaniment of our general policy. If we were going to extend our Empire we must have these railroads in order to develop the extensions. He did not think any excuse was needed for a further debate on this Resolution; indeed it was necessitated by the statement made by the noble Lord on Tuesday night. Memories of hon. Members in regard to these matters were short, and he might, therefore, be forgiven if he reminded them what the position was in 1900 in regard to this scheme. The original undertaking commenced in 1893. First there was a survey for the line, and work was actually commenced under the auspices of the Foreign Office in 1895. In 1900 a very large supplementary grant was asked for, and a Bill had to be brought in in that year. There was nothing at all in the statement made by the Minister in charge of that Bill, the predecessor of the noble Lord and the present Secretary of State for War, which indicated that there was to be any further request for money beyond the mere assertion that, in winding up a large undertaking of that kind, it was quite possible that some small additional charges would have to be provided for. He was under the impression that at that time a true estimate of the total cost had to be made such an estimate as people in private life would have been justified in expecting to be prepared by |